What can you say about the golf situation in Argentina? BA specifically. Here's what I've been able to gather so far... Argentina has the highest number of golf courses of any Latin American country. Most importantly for tourists and actual or potential expats, apparently, some, many or all of the even exclusive private golf clubs seem to open theirs course to the public at least a couple days per week. And the green fees are only around $40 USD. Even the private clubs are hurting so bad from the economic situation that private doesn't even mean totally private. Although what non-wealthy Argentine could afford $40 to play a round of golf, or would golf in the first place. Can you verify this, or do an article about the golf scene in BA. Pretty certain that's the main hobby of the type of people reading your site.
Yes, this is the case; it is very affordable to play golf here and also the food in most club restaurants is excellent with very competitive pricing. Just around Buenos Aires there’s many, I wrote a thread on Twitter with all of them:
Affordable is all relative of course. Do you have any hard numbers for specific clubs?
That's a nice little top 11 list of BA courses you tweeted. But just a list of the top courses doesn't really answer the most pertinent questions I have about the golf scene down there... Things that I can't figure out from Googling...
Namely, does private indeed mean private and exclusive like it does in most places, or due to the economic situation in Argentina, are expats still able to play on any, some, or all of these often private courses?
And what is the average pricing for just a round (not a full membership) at some of the courses the public and/or expats can play?
I have looked on the top100 golf courses website and figured out which BA courses are the best, but that doesn't mean that I could actually play them as a tourist or expat, without having to buy a membership at one specific club, which is not my style.
Like everywhere, I'm sure there are be exclusive country clubs where only members or their guests can play, and some clubs where no matter how much money you have, it's still not a guarantee you'd even get accepted as a member, but I have some sense that Argentina is less exclusive than other places, and I've heard that some private clubs aren't really totally private... Maybe wishful thinking, but due to the immer serious economic situation, maybe things are different down there.
Is there any truth to this that you've heard?
Is there anyone that I could call who speaks English that could give me a full detailed breakdown on the golf scene in BA?
Quite frankly, as a former Div 1 college golfer, there is no way I would ever consider becoming at expat in BA or anywhere, if I couldn't find good diversity and value for golfing. I.e. Being able to play a decent variety of challenging championship courses for daily rate green fees, which are at least 1/2 the price of courses in Canada or the US for something of similar quality.
Not your specialty obviously, since you're not a golfer, but wondering if you could point me in the direction where I could get all this detailed information.
Would it be foolish to get an Argentine passport considering the state of the country? I’m a US citizen but would be eligible through a parent. I don’t have a second passport.
If you can get that process started I would definitely do so. Argentina has a great passport in terms of accessibility next to an EU or US passport, and having it will also allow you to live visa free in Paraguay, Uruguay and Brazil (all part of Mercosur countries), just like an EU passport allows you to live in any EU country.
I have been waiting for a decade plus to buy a small winery in Argentina. When i started looking the USD/ARs rate was 4 to 1.
The only thing holding me back is i knew the economy would collapse. Which i want to see how that plays out.
Do you think the government would get desperate enough and start taking foreigners land away or other assets? Are there other things i should consider before going balls deep?
I think they will eventually do a complete 180. Argentina is capitalist at heart and it feels like everyone has had it up to here with these socialist policies, except for people that rely on the system and government politicians. The 2023 will be brutal for the ruling party (peronists), and it is very refreshing to see a wave of young libertarians with completely opposite views.
They need dollars badly, and those will only arrive if certain policies are changed and capital is protected. This is why I think the upcoming year and a half will be crucial to follow developments closely if you are really interested in buying. So many bodegas up for absolute pennies now, investors that did the same in 2002 are still thriving just because of the timing, they bought at absolute lows and rode the first 10 years of this century, which was 8-10% YoY growth.
In my opinion we are close to a similar bottom, but I do admit that the reserves etc are in worse shape than in 2001, so it might play out differently.
Province: Salta, Mendoza (depending on where you prefer)
Bodega (if available) or Finca, Viñedo
In general you will not see sale prices here, only if it’s sold/off market. But for commercial and residential real estate there are some really good deals (going up to -20% off the original listing price). Since bodegas are even less liquid, I can imagine similar deals and historically low prices should be available now
My partner is Colombian and we have been looking at land there for similar reasons, but for a few reasons (mainly security & the new left wing government) we are widening the search. Are the Ley de Tierras laws relating to all foreigners, or do Mercosur citizens get an easier look in?
They are for all foreigners, but in the current situation there are no caps anywhere as long as the department or province doesn’t cross 15% of foreign ownership. So still a lot of land available (also for the specific limit on acreage that is only in very specific zones and you shouldn’t worry about that). The rest doesn’t have a limit except for the 15% one.
What can you say about the golf situation in Argentina? BA specifically. Here's what I've been able to gather so far... Argentina has the highest number of golf courses of any Latin American country. Most importantly for tourists and actual or potential expats, apparently, some, many or all of the even exclusive private golf clubs seem to open theirs course to the public at least a couple days per week. And the green fees are only around $40 USD. Even the private clubs are hurting so bad from the economic situation that private doesn't even mean totally private. Although what non-wealthy Argentine could afford $40 to play a round of golf, or would golf in the first place. Can you verify this, or do an article about the golf scene in BA. Pretty certain that's the main hobby of the type of people reading your site.
Yes, this is the case; it is very affordable to play golf here and also the food in most club restaurants is excellent with very competitive pricing. Just around Buenos Aires there’s many, I wrote a thread on Twitter with all of them:
https://twitter.com/bowtiedmara/status/1596654684919455744?s=46&t=yxnjWA8okllHgXjRicQ3VQ
Affordable is all relative of course. Do you have any hard numbers for specific clubs?
That's a nice little top 11 list of BA courses you tweeted. But just a list of the top courses doesn't really answer the most pertinent questions I have about the golf scene down there... Things that I can't figure out from Googling...
Namely, does private indeed mean private and exclusive like it does in most places, or due to the economic situation in Argentina, are expats still able to play on any, some, or all of these often private courses?
And what is the average pricing for just a round (not a full membership) at some of the courses the public and/or expats can play?
I have looked on the top100 golf courses website and figured out which BA courses are the best, but that doesn't mean that I could actually play them as a tourist or expat, without having to buy a membership at one specific club, which is not my style.
Like everywhere, I'm sure there are be exclusive country clubs where only members or their guests can play, and some clubs where no matter how much money you have, it's still not a guarantee you'd even get accepted as a member, but I have some sense that Argentina is less exclusive than other places, and I've heard that some private clubs aren't really totally private... Maybe wishful thinking, but due to the immer serious economic situation, maybe things are different down there.
Is there any truth to this that you've heard?
Is there anyone that I could call who speaks English that could give me a full detailed breakdown on the golf scene in BA?
Quite frankly, as a former Div 1 college golfer, there is no way I would ever consider becoming at expat in BA or anywhere, if I couldn't find good diversity and value for golfing. I.e. Being able to play a decent variety of challenging championship courses for daily rate green fees, which are at least 1/2 the price of courses in Canada or the US for something of similar quality.
Not your specialty obviously, since you're not a golfer, but wondering if you could point me in the direction where I could get all this detailed information.
Thx
Would it be foolish to get an Argentine passport considering the state of the country? I’m a US citizen but would be eligible through a parent. I don’t have a second passport.
If you can get that process started I would definitely do so. Argentina has a great passport in terms of accessibility next to an EU or US passport, and having it will also allow you to live visa free in Paraguay, Uruguay and Brazil (all part of Mercosur countries), just like an EU passport allows you to live in any EU country.
I have been waiting for a decade plus to buy a small winery in Argentina. When i started looking the USD/ARs rate was 4 to 1.
The only thing holding me back is i knew the economy would collapse. Which i want to see how that plays out.
Do you think the government would get desperate enough and start taking foreigners land away or other assets? Are there other things i should consider before going balls deep?
I think they will eventually do a complete 180. Argentina is capitalist at heart and it feels like everyone has had it up to here with these socialist policies, except for people that rely on the system and government politicians. The 2023 will be brutal for the ruling party (peronists), and it is very refreshing to see a wave of young libertarians with completely opposite views.
They need dollars badly, and those will only arrive if certain policies are changed and capital is protected. This is why I think the upcoming year and a half will be crucial to follow developments closely if you are really interested in buying. So many bodegas up for absolute pennies now, investors that did the same in 2002 are still thriving just because of the timing, they bought at absolute lows and rode the first 10 years of this century, which was 8-10% YoY growth.
In my opinion we are close to a similar bottom, but I do admit that the reserves etc are in worse shape than in 2001, so it might play out differently.
What is a good website to follow bodegas for sale? And sold prices.
I get updates from brokers and weekly emails from an American selling small plots but they don't include anything that has actually sold
I found these sections specifically dedicated to bodegas:
https://www.agroads.com.ar/seccion.asp?subcat=144
https://www.rimontgowineries.com/es/bodegas-en-venta-argentina (more high end)
https://www.inmoclick.com.ar/inmuebles/bodegas-y-fincas-en-venta-en-mendoza
Some good sites for rural properties & bodegas are:
agroads.com.ar
agrofy.com.ar
argenprop.com
mercadolibre.com.ar (have to go to RE section)
zonaprop.com.ar
Filter down on:
Province: Salta, Mendoza (depending on where you prefer)
Bodega (if available) or Finca, Viñedo
In general you will not see sale prices here, only if it’s sold/off market. But for commercial and residential real estate there are some really good deals (going up to -20% off the original listing price). Since bodegas are even less liquid, I can imagine similar deals and historically low prices should be available now
great info, thanks for putting it out there!
My partner is Colombian and we have been looking at land there for similar reasons, but for a few reasons (mainly security & the new left wing government) we are widening the search. Are the Ley de Tierras laws relating to all foreigners, or do Mercosur citizens get an easier look in?
They are for all foreigners, but in the current situation there are no caps anywhere as long as the department or province doesn’t cross 15% of foreign ownership. So still a lot of land available (also for the specific limit on acreage that is only in very specific zones and you shouldn’t worry about that). The rest doesn’t have a limit except for the 15% one.